What sound chip combination do you like the most?

PSG and MSX Music (16 votes) 26.7%
PSG and SCC (30 votes) 50.0%
MSX Music and MSX Audio (14 votes) 23.3%
Total votes: 60

Comments (49)

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

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08-08-2012, 12:12

That was easy as OPLL is quite poor (clean, empty, metallic) and the SCC has this superb rawness to it.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5382)

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08-08-2012, 12:59

No, MSX Music + MSX Audio is the best option, when you forget the powerful MoonSound !

By ro

Guardian (4012)

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08-08-2012, 15:02

psg, scc. it's indeed the rawnes that apeals to me.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5382)

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08-08-2012, 16:27

If I use the results of this poll :

http://www.msx.org/poll/whats-your-favorite-msx-soundchip

we should have

PSG + SCC = 50,4 %

PSG + MSX-MUSIC = 29,4 %

MSX-MUSIC + MSX-AUDIO = 30,7 %

MOONSOUND = 18,9 %

So we have clearly 2 almost equal parts in the MSX community, just like for the presidential elections in France :

PSG + SCC = 50,4 %

MSX-MUSIC + MSX-AUDIO + MOONSOUND = 49,6 %

By Meits

Scribe (5211)

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08-08-2012, 17:12

Moonblaster 1.4 ftw Big smile

By MsxKun

Paladin (865)

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08-08-2012, 18:58

As it asks for COMBINATION, I bet for PSG+SCC as they fit together better than MSX-Music and PSG. I'd say MSX-Music plus MSX-Audio is quite redundant as just MSX-Audio should be enought unless you really need more channels. So, combination, PSG+SCC. (at least for the most common ones, as there are some missing).

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5382)

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08-08-2012, 19:10

Quote:

I'd say MSX-Music plus MSX-Audio is quite redundant as just MSX-Audio should be enought unless you really need more channels.

More channels for stereo and samples ! Smile

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9712)

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08-08-2012, 19:14

MsxKun wrote:

As it asks for COMBINATION, I bet for PSG+SCC as they fit together better than MSX-Music and PSG.

o_O
So, Xak TToG, Fray etc. were misfires that would have sounded better with an SCC instead of MSX Music?

By MsxKun

Paladin (865)

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08-08-2012, 19:51

wolf_ wrote:
MsxKun wrote:

As it asks for COMBINATION, I bet for PSG+SCC as they fit together better than MSX-Music and PSG.

o_O
So, Xak TToG, Fray etc. were misfires that would have sounded better with an SCC instead of MSX Music?

Probably better with MSX Music + SCC Big smile But it's not on the poll list.

By MsxKun

Paladin (865)

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08-08-2012, 19:54

mars2000you wrote:
Quote:

I'd say MSX-Music plus MSX-Audio is quite redundant as just MSX-Audio should be enought unless you really need more channels.

More channels for stereo and samples ! Smile

Stereo is pointless Big smile Samples are in the MSX-Audio part, you still can eliminate the MSX-Music.
Exterminate! Exterminate!

Oh, and yes, it's better than nothing, but for that, better use 2 Music Modules Face

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5382)

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08-08-2012, 20:05

MsxKun wrote:

Oh, and yes, it's better than nothing, but for that, better use 2 Music Modules Face

No, I like the complementarity created by the differences of "tonality" between the same instruments in both chips. Besides, MSX-AUDIO has also exclusive instruments.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

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08-08-2012, 20:42

Indeed, the clever usage of the sound of MSX-MUSIC and MSX-Audio combined can create a really nice stereo sound. One can use instruments that are almost-but-not-quite the same, or use completely different instruments altogether. By changing volume, some nice panning can be done as well. It can sound a lot more 'full' than merely a simple detune.

The true power of MSX-MUSIC + MSX-Audio is still quite unknown, as Moonblaster did not support these chips completely independent of each other and trackers that did (SME3 and ??) never really took off the way Moonblaster did.

Anyways, as much as I like the PSG + SCC and PSG + MSX-MUSIC sound (Konami and Microcabin did miracles on those combinations respectively), my vote goes to MSX-MUSIC+MSX-Audio because this combination represents the magic spirit that touched the Dutch MSX scene in 1990s. As I happened to grow up in that era, and contributed to a few scene releases at the time... I would betray myself if I wouldn't vote for this one.

More than any commercially released MSX game, just opening up Moonblaster is pure nostalgia for me and takes me right back to the time I had when I was a ~10-14 year old boy...

I think the reason I'm still so fond of MSX is that I played a (very small) part in the MSX Scene back then. Had I only been playing some Konami & Microcabin games - no matter how great these games and their music in particular were - and not been a Flying Bytes member, I'm not sure wheter or not I'd still be as attracted to MSX as I am today.

By wolf_

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08-08-2012, 21:17

The problem is that it's almost impossible to just judge the chip itself. PSG+SCC has all our best Konami bells ringing, PSG+FM brings up the outstanding Micro Cabin work, and today, with FMPAC+Musmod I actually think of the limited features of Moonblaster. We've never used these last two chips to their fullest extent.

By popolon33

Expert (84)

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08-08-2012, 22:13

You can judge the 5 channels of the SCC itself with a lot of games in the Konami Game Collections Wink

By Jorito

Mr. Ambassadors (1751)

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09-08-2012, 05:50

Meh. MSX Music and MSX Audio are too similar. PSG+FM is nice, but I've always been partial to the SCC sound. Even if it's technically inferior to the MSX Music. The sound of the SCC reminds me of the C64 SID.

By RobertVroemisse

Paragon (1232)

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09-08-2012, 10:22

Like snout already said, I would betray myself if I didn't vote for the MSX Music / MSX Audio combination. Great memories and a great time blowing eachother away on MSX fairs with loud MB stereo music. A real bloody shame this combination is never used nowadays. Maybe the fact that Moonblaster became freeware will trigger some activity and interest.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6031)

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09-08-2012, 11:17

The SCC bugs are a true pain in the xss for evolute applications, I do not mean only Pcm samples on the ISR - which work well for sampled sfx, but also for music, where changing waves while music is on is a trial and errors process...
Can we change the poll adding psg+scc-i ?
Question

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9712)

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09-08-2012, 11:20

SCC/SCC-I is all "SCC". Comments like these are for the reactions.

By Samor

Paragon (1995)

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09-08-2012, 12:39

Konami themselves always used the PSG primarily for drum support on SCC tunes, with some very minor secondary "voice" work (mainly reverbs).
I guess the SCC isn't really suitable for drums, although it was refreshing to hear the Infinite-take on the SCC+PSG combo in MJTT Smile

Not that I really like the OPLL drum sound, but it can function better as such, so the PSG can be used for more voices (which is what Microcabin used really well).

IMO the PSG sounds a lot better as a "voice" than OPLL, which has always come across to me as "emotionless" (same with similar chips). Combining PSG with MSX Music gave the songs more soul. It also sounds similar-ish to the Sega MegaDrive (minus the heavy bass/drums on the MegaDrive).

By Meits

Scribe (5211)

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09-08-2012, 17:27

RobertVroemisse wrote:

Like snout already said, I would betray myself if I didn't vote for the MSX Music / MSX Audio combination. Great memories and a great time blowing eachother away on MSX fairs with loud MB stereo music. A real bloody shame this combination is never used nowadays. Maybe the fact that Moonblaster became freeware will trigger some activity and interest.

Well I might hope that that 100+ downloads went to at least some composers Smile

And ehm... It is being used still:
1, 2, 3 ;)

But indeed... There should be more than just 1 person working with it... How about you :D

By Gradius2

Hero (569)

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09-08-2012, 18:09

I found PSG+FM-PAC better because both are user friendly.

SCC by other hand, no!

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

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10-08-2012, 09:38

Meits wrote:

But indeed... There should be more than just 1 person working with it... How about you Big smile

Yes, maybe I will. it's been a long time since I booted that program. My only musical abominations are conceived with Reason nowadays. Sometimes I try to arrange my old MB 1.4 and MBWave songs with Reason. You can listen to them here and here.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5382)

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10-08-2012, 10:03

RobertVroemisse wrote:

You can listen to them here and here.

:( Detected by Firefox/Google as "malicious page"

About the smilies on MRC : they are eaten by Pac-Man ! ;(

By RobertVroemisse

Paragon (1232)

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10-08-2012, 11:14

Hmmmm, had that message a while ago as well. Contacted Google about it and they would look into it. I can access those pages here without any problem. Strange...

By RobertVroemisse

Paragon (1232)

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10-08-2012, 11:15

I am at work now and on my PC (with Windows XP) there is no problem at all. Maybe some strange Firewall thingie?

By Samor

Paragon (1995)

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10-08-2012, 12:13

Probably something in the ads. Some other site I frequent recently had the same Google warning.

By RobertVroemisse

Paragon (1232)

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10-08-2012, 12:38

I don't have adds there... Maybe a IE/Firefox thingie? Here, at work, I use IE and the site works fine.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5382)

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10-08-2012, 14:25

IE has a lower security level than Firefox.

Actually, Firefox/Google detects that one page of the site can provoke downloading/installation of malware.

Besides, it precises that the site is on the AS6724 (STRATO) network, for which he has found many other examples with the same problem. It means probably that this network has been partially hacked and/or at least one user of this network has used dangerous software on his site, contaminating other sites.

By Samor

Paragon (1995)

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10-08-2012, 15:29

Gradius2 wrote:

I found PSG+FM-PAC better because both are user friendly.

SCC by other hand, no!

well, the SCC wasn't meant for home users to toy with (but they still did, fortunately). MSX Music can be accessed even from Basic (for people like me who can't program anything else on MSX Tongue).
Or do you mean something else?

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9712)

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10-08-2012, 15:34

Well, two problems with the SCC:

  • The 'SCC bug' when changing volumes - quite present in MJTT I'm afraid.
  • The volume steps are not logarithmic (like the PSG is) but linear. Meaning that 'volume 8' results in different loudnesses on both chips. And while you may be able work around this when entering notes (just use different volume values, as they match what you want to hear), it also means that volume envelopes between the two chips have to be treated differently.

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

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10-08-2012, 17:25

Those are non issue. They are handled quite easy.

[*]The 'SCC bug' when changing volumes - quite present in MJTT I'm afraid.

Solved by writing the waveform slower. We had the same issues and solved by writing the waveforms....much....slower... just.... as ..... konami.... does Wink (tested)

[*]The volume steps are not logarithmic (like the PSG is) but linear. Meaning that 'volume 8' results in different loudnesses on both chips. And while you may be able work around this when entering notes (just use different volume values, as they match what you want to hear), it also means that volume envelopes between the two chips have to be treated differently.

Quite easy to solve with two volume tables as probably a music replayer uses a master volume and a volume offset (for eg instrument macro). I am using a table for PSG which makes the volume linear and one for SCC which is already liniar. Differences solved. Revisit/IP probalby doesn't support it Wink Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue

By Edwin

Paragon (1182)

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10-08-2012, 23:29

wolf_ wrote:

[*]The 'SCC bug' when changing volumes - quite present in MJTT I'm afraid.

That's not the bug that you hear in MJTT.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6031)

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10-08-2012, 23:59

The scc bug happen when you change waves or access to its registers. Each access gives a sort of spike in the output that last one or more samples in the waves and can affect one or more channels. Any advanced use of the scc chip is castrated.
The bug does not happen on scc-I.
The difference between the two chips is enormously bigger than the sole 5th wave.
Without this bug, you would have had clean pcm audio samples on the ISR since 2008...

https://sites.google.com/site/testmsx/Home/scc-pcm-replayer

https://sites.google.com/site/testmsx/Home/Intruder_SCC.rom?...

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (2880)

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11-08-2012, 01:27

I would chose MSX-Music + SCC, but this option wasn't available. It sounds fantastic on MGS player.

@ARTRAG
Weird! But then how comes that Snatcher, SD-Snatcher and the KGC games could be ported to play on the standard SCC without producing such spikes? Those games make heavy use of on-the-fly instrument changing.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

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11-08-2012, 02:45

@sd_snatcher: we chose to use common dual-chip combos in this poll. MGS/Musica is actually a triple-chip combo, namely PSG+SCC+MSX-MUSIC - which is indeed a great mix.

Many Dutch fans will also recall SME3.0 and its promos, all with music from Andries Minnaard if I'm not mistaken. This was the most ultimate combination of MSX soundchips ever. And surprisingly, it could still be combined with a nice demo as well.

What was it? PSG + 5xSCC + MSX-MUSIC + 2xMSX-Audio? (is Alex Wulms around to confirm? IIRC he was the coder of it all...).

When MCCM90 was released I did try to play around with SME3.0(promo?) a bit, but I recall the interface was so different from Moonblaster that I really struggled to work on it. Still... perhaps all it takes is a little more documentation, effort and/or trial and error. Or perhas even the old sources could be used to build a new, more user-friendly tracker around it all?

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6031)

ARTRAG's picture

11-08-2012, 07:17

the spikes are rendered as noise. konami programmers were able to reduce the occurrence of such effect by choosing the wave data and the way they update them in the chip
It is possible that the snatcher games use these tricks and the same code used on scc for the replayer, even if not needed on scc-i, thus when ported to scc the noise is reduced
anyway I think these games do not change the waves so much as you say, the pcm player on scc has to change all the waves each interrupt....

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

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11-08-2012, 08:13

About the noise issue. I forgot to add to only write changed values to non-waveform values.

@Artrag: Do you rememnder the TT tests we did on real HW? By writing only the differences (slowly) we solved the (noticable) noise. The Konami waveforms we used for testing did not give other results than our own waveforms.

Perhaps it's a good idea to do some extra tests in a couple of days using real HW again. If TT still doesn't have noise issues would it be an idea, for us, to give a try on MJTT to solve the issue? And see if my assumptions are valid?

By Edwin

Paragon (1182)

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11-08-2012, 13:31

ARTRAG/Huey: A small question about the bug since it's been too long since I tested anything. Does the one you mention also corrupt the wave memory when writing the new wave?

In relation to the poll. It's a shame that internal+external sound suffers from balance problems. For that reason fm-pac+msx-audio would be nice. Plus there needs to be more of that.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6031)

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11-08-2012, 17:12

no memory corruption only noisy output

By Edwin

Paragon (1182)

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11-08-2012, 21:55

Different one for sure then. Quite a bugfest that SCC. Definitely not PSG+SCC then ;-)

By Meits

Scribe (5211)

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14-08-2012, 19:50

Judgings the scores SCC + PSG are getting so far, I kinda get the feeling it's mostly listeners rather than composers...
I got quite a load of work getting a normal note from the device... It really is one of my least favorites... "draw" every note's envelope is somewhat no fun at all...

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9712)

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14-08-2012, 21:01

You're referring to SCC-Musixx, rather than the chip itself.

By Meits

Scribe (5211)

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14-08-2012, 21:38

nope... i don't work with scc musixx... Blaffer...
I have a tad of hope that trilotracker might bring a workable environment...

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5357)

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14-08-2012, 21:46

Meits wrote:

I have a tad of hope that trilotracker might bring a workable environment...

If you can work with Vortex Tracker II and/or Moonblaster 1.4, you can work with TriloTracker. Smile

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

15-08-2012, 06:41

I mean, the GUI must look familiar. Only that there's lots more possibilities. Wink

NES Metal Gear test song on YouTube

Yes, the colors aren't right. Movie Maker + codecs = a world of fun.

BTW the SCC waves used here were ripped from F-1 Spirit. Everything else is from scratch (including the volume envelopes, frequency modulation etc. which said SCC waves follow), but you won't have to do that again and again since TT will work with a system similar to voicebanks/samplekits/wavekits.

By Manuel

Ascended (14788)

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15-08-2012, 09:10

Microcabin FTW!

By Meits

Scribe (5211)

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15-08-2012, 13:07

John: Looks promising without an unnecessarily filled command channel...
Ripping waves from Konami games... Now that's interresting... Creating waves yourself is hell Tongue

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

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15-08-2012, 19:42

Meits wrote:

Ripping waves from Konami games...

I thought that was the normal procedure actually (and that it was special that we initially didn't). Smile

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

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18-08-2012, 10:56

@Meits: You have been using MB for too long. Big smile You have grown attached to it.
You are the first one to complain about such things. Other users are very anxious to be able to have such control over the SCC and PSG. Starting with ripping Konami waves is a good start to get a feel. It's interesting to see (openMSX-> SCC toys) what waveforms (and wave updates) are used in Solid Snake too reach certain effects.

Remember there is always such a thing as saving/loading instruments and waves. Wink But if you want I could make a version with a fixed set of instruments and waves Wink

There is still so much to do with SCC that hasn't been done yet. The problem is that there is no software available to take it to the next level and make it enjoyable to work with it (no disrespect to SCC-Musix and SCC Blaffer and other software).
I'm giving it a try with TriloTracker as I love the PSG+SCC sound. I started with solving the known (to me) SCC bugs with workarounds and let John and Inverse Phase decide on how the tracker should look and work. Most of their feature requests are/will be implemented (except ornaments which are replaced with arps).
There are commands on the to-do list to play around with the SCC for which we are not sure what the outcome and result will be: 1) deformation register control, 2) update waveforms on interval, 3) play 1600Hz/1920Hz samples over 1 SCC channel.

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