Is it a good "trick" for 32x32 sprites?

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Por tonigalvez

Champion (280)

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25-05-2014, 04:05

Please play to Menace MSXDEV´09, I make the sprites mixed to have more colors and antialiasing.

Por NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5385)

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25-05-2014, 05:30

I remember using this trick long long ago with 1,1 offset... this way I could make 45°mask for a block... but the demo is still on the drawer. Smile

Por MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

imagem de MäSäXi

31-05-2014, 21:42

Years ago me too have had fun with the same idea. Smile It works also with humans, not just spaceships, but the result of course depends on design, of course.

Sandy Brand wrote:

Hmm mixing sprite scaling modes using a screen-split is an interesting idea, although still quite limiting.

Is there any demo which shows that? A demo showing magnified and normal sprites at the same time, without flicker?

Sandy Brand wrote:

I guess if you made the lower part of the screen in 1x1 sprite mode and upper part in 2x2 scaled mode, you could do something like Space Invaders whereby the actual game-play design makes sure sprites do not cross the screen-split line. Projectiles and lasers and such could be done in screen 4, or like you suggested as software sprites in screen 5, so that these can actually transition from bottom to top and vice versa.

Or maybe something like Beam Rider where the player's movement is limited to the bottom half of the screen in a fairly 'natural' way?

This way you could make a shoot-em-up, which can have a very smoothly moving large end-of-stage enemy ship or creature, while your own ship is made of a non-magnified sprite(s). Smile Magnified sprites were easy way to make BIG enemies on Commodore 64, it was a pity MSX couldn´t do the same. Simple stick shape bullets which travel from magnified area to non-magnified area and vice versa, could be made using two sprites, thin sprite for magnified area and thicker for non-magnified area, just swap sprite shape when bullet travels over screen-split line.

It doesn´t have to be a shooter, imagine some horizontally scrolling motorbike game, which has magnified bike and biker at the bottom and non-magnified birds and clouds flying in the sky. Or make a game with perspective, magnified sprites to the bottom and non-magnified to the top, other player could be far away (non-magnified). Might work with air hockey game (with similar viewpoint as "Animal Wars" has) which is actually just a 3D version of Pong.

Just few ideas. I hope more people will be using magnified sprites too in the future. Smile

Por hit9918

Prophet (2867)

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01-06-2014, 14:41

@MäSäXi, MSX makes endmonster with tiles with scroll tech, then shoots bullet ring, then C64 endmonster is finished Smile

In a black sky game like Nemesis the player could be software sprite.
Then an enemy the size of a magnified sprite, in two colors, in hires! can fly right in your face without flicker.
Two more such critters could come from upper and lower side. Then you pray that the sprite power has an end Big smile

Por MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

imagem de MäSäXi

25-07-2014, 21:43

Thank you for your idea, Hit9918! Smile

Sandy Brand wrote:

Hmm mixing sprite scaling modes using a screen-split is an interesting idea

Quote:

Is there any demo which shows that? A demo showing magnified and normal sprites at the same time, without flicker?

I noticed there wasn´t any answer yet to this question. Smile Is this possible?

Por hit9918

Prophet (2867)

imagem de hit9918

26-07-2014, 00:35

mixing normal and magnified sprites,
all sprites of a scanline would have to be same mode = unfreedom of Y move.
means the usual game looses all gameplay.
one would need to know the game in question to say more.

JAWBREAKER is special in that there the fatpixels didn't disturb me.
in 99% of cases I find them bad.
in jawbreaker the reason maybe is that there are no hires backgrounds.
and then that epic sprite pattern animation Big smile

generaly I would think more about software sprites.
e.g. in mario many things happen in front of blank sky.
There screen 2 can make a software sprite that is like a MSX2 linecolor sprite.
add to that one layer hardware sprite.
this makes 4 epic colorsprites per scanline.

over the typical wall tile they make one pixel bleed. that's aceptable.

Por MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

imagem de MäSäXi

26-07-2014, 13:21

Thank you Hit9918! For me it´s a wonderful thing to know it IS possible! Smile I am a fan of old games which had both normal and magnified sprites on the screen at the same time, so well designed (and preferably multi-colour) magnified sprites does not look bad in my eyes. Smile

Can that mixing be done anywhere in the screen? I mean one doesn´t have to do like this - top half of the screen for normal and bottom half of the screen for magnified sprites? If mixing can be done in any Y-line, it will give much more alternatives to game design. Smile

What exactly will happen, if magnified sprites will move to same scanline as normal sprites or vice versa? When top row of the pixels of magnified sprite comes to same scanline of normal sprite´s bottom row of pixels, does whole magnified sprite turn into normal sprite or vice versa? Or does only the top row of pixels of magnified sprite turn into normal pixels? Or does such thing cause strange flickering garbage to those scanlines where both sprites are? Or even more worse garbage for every sprite on the screen?

If sprite will just swap it´s magnification status between normal/magnified, it will allow certain type of games to be made. Smile If the game does lose all gameplay or not, depends just on game design ideas.

Think about old style single screen ladders and platforms climbing/jumping game, one interesting effect could be like this: all enemies are normal sprites and player is made of normal sprites. When player enters same platform row as enemies, "a window" will open, which shows that platform row pixels twice as big (like magnified sprites) and both player and enemies of that platform row will turn magnified sprites and other enemies above and below that "window" will stay normal sized. It will be "a battle window" where player can either fight against enemies or just try to avoid them, also music could change into fast threatening mode. Maybe this doesn´t sound much, but I think it as a very interesting effect, surely NOT used in any MSX game before. Smile

About other examples, I think I have seen lately some Coleco mock-up screens for Rygar and it used magnified sprites, they didn´t look bad in my eyes, and magnification will help MSX1 to survive better from 4-sprites-per-scanline "problem" as it will produce bigger 16x16 sprites. Smile One could put normal sized bird sprites flying above magnified player and enemies, that would be a nice effect too. Smile Think about enemies flying high above the ground level, those enemies in the sky could be normal sized "birds from hell". Their projectiles, like stick-shape space invader bullets or spears, can be normal sized, which would turn into magnified when they get close to ground level. Also, flying normal sized winged enemies (human like or fire breathing small dragons etc) could fly in the sky and when they decide to attack, they will move towards the bottom, maybe turning bigger in the mid-air (by using more normal sprites) as they come closer and when they come nearer the same scanline as walking magnified player and walking magnified enemies, they will turn into magnified sprites and will stop flying and so they will fall much faster to the ground to give more nasty attack with their swords/fire projectiles.

Magnified sprites against hi-res background is not the problem. The problem is that game makers may not want to use magnified sprites. But mixing magnified sprites among normal sized sprites, instead of using software sprites will give nice advantages over software sprites: Let´s think about flip screen or horizontally scrolling sword fighting game, if we decide to use normal sized sprites for walking player and walking enemies, and will have a detailed colourful hi-res background with tall trees and clouds and mountains, then with mixing magnified sprites we could have a BIG smoothly flying nicely animated dragon (made from several sprites) flying above the player, wings flapping and turning it´s head towards the player to breathe fire to right direction. Just flying from right to left through the screen and vice versa, randomly stopping in the air to look at the player. All this without spoiling the background with software sprites! And all this without the need to have that dragon in the box, as software sprite will cause dragon graphics to be in the box. No need to calculate where to draw BIG animated software sprite dragon and no need to calculate where to re-draw the screen which was erased by that big software sprite dragon. Smile Sure, software sprites will give much more colour in Screen 2, but I think it would be nice to see a BIG dragon sprite(s) flying smoothly over detailed background. Smile As player and other enemies would be small normal sprites, that magnified huge dragon would look even BIGGER! Big smile

Your mario software sprite ideas are good, I just would like to see magnified sprites in use, as we are part of LO-tech computer users anyway. Even more I would like to see MSX games which could mix normal and magnified sprites. Hopefully somebody gets interested about my ideas and gets even better ideas for mixing sprite size modes in games. Cool

Por hit9918

Prophet (2867)

imagem de hit9918

26-07-2014, 18:35

@MäSäXI,
you misunderstood, it is impossible that a hires knight faces a magnified goblin or a hires warp rattler faces a magnified core.
sprites are always about what happens in the same horizontal line.
I try to tell things without tech babble.

"(and preferably multi-colour)"
you want the software sprite + hardware sprite layer thing I talked.

it's hard to tell color specs, it is minimum 2. in some regions.
noticed the uridium intro ship?
that is software sprite layer alone with no hardware layer aid, that alone goes beyond the promised 2 colors.

to make the tools and engines to have it in game is a different story.
I tell what MSX1 can display, the dreams Smile

look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRuhcpSvXdk&t=10m0s
Same thing on MSX1, but the dragon is double wide and double height and all hires! :D

The dragon of the size in the video can be done without engine ado with just hardware sprites.
Such critters can pop up anytime without warning mid-game.
And drop a bullet ring on you :D

Por MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

imagem de MäSäXi

26-07-2014, 19:16

Just to make sure, I understood from your previous message that it is possible to get both magnified and normal sized sprites on the screen at the same time, as long as you don´t try to put them on the same scanline.

Example: magnified monster sprite on Y-coordinate 20 and normal sized player sprite on Y-coordinate 60, so they are not on same scanline. Is this possible or not?

Por hit9918

Prophet (2867)

imagem de hit9918

26-07-2014, 19:57

Yes it is possible. Except VDP has some unexpected surprise, but it is unlikely.

when you said "software sprites in a box", that sounds like 8x8 pixel charset move. I certainly didn't mean those.
Problem with the software sprites I am talking is that they still need coding to be seen.
Their bleed casts some shadow on the tiles.
At least on blank sky it is so obvious that they work, still that direction was never taken.
Any video known where the sprite method is not ZX?

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