The Secret of Monkey Island in development for MSX2

And if it's on the SCUMM engine, I want it on SCUMMVM
Is it?

Hello Msx brothers, I am Oscar Kenneth from Kai Magazine.

We are in fact developing an engine from zero, similar to the Scumm engine, but completelly from scratch.
The MSX2 is not capable to support an engine like Scumm v4.0 (the Scumm engine version of monkey island 1), not by a long shot, so we have to adapt every single graphic and code to be able to run something very similar on our beloved MSX2.

So, to clarify, this is not a port of the Scumm engine (which would be totally legal) but a port of the actual game itself (which is not tecnically legal unless we pay the licensing of the product, which belongs to Disney, and it is VERY expensive).

So, the good news is, the msx2 is capable to enjoy a game such monkey island 1 and similar, and we will create a project/demo to present to the msx comunity, to see if we can raise enough interest to engage in such a project (which development would take about an entire year), but it is a long shot.

Also, the legal issues could be a huge problem as well, so we are not trying to fool anyone. The odds are against us.
We just want to show that it is technically possible, and see what happens beyond this point.
But please do not keep your hopes up. As I said, due to legal reasons, it is a long shot.

Regards:
Oscar Kenneth

I thought so myself, but I investigated in depth:

Lucas Arts has not disappeared, belongs to Disney, and acts only as a "Licenser": a company which exclusivelly sells licenses of their products.
Also, Monkey island is far from being abandonware, since just 2 or 3 years ago an HD remake was made for PC and Iphone/Ipad.
Also, "telltale games. inc" purchased the license to make an episodic sequel of the series, published over the last few years for all platforms.

You can consult some of this facts on Wikipedia.

I do not think they would care of 100 copies of the games

Now thats the spirit Kai. Development may take you years or even longer but those who are persistent enough prevail. I wish you the best in succeeding. Just keep your project silent and quiet then no one of disney/lucas will notice and you can at least finish the project.

Thank you all for your support

Hello, the problem is Scumm v4 requieriments. Those are WAY too superior for an msx2 to handle, in all hardware aspects.
Take a look at the Scumm v4 hardware requieriments, and compere those to the MSX 2 hardware specs.

what *are* the requirements you speak about?

DOS Version :

Minimum CPU Class Required 8088 / 8086
Minimum OS Class Required DOS 3.1
Minimum RAM Required 640 KB
Media Type 3.5" Floppy Disk, 5.25" Floppy Disk, CD-ROM
Minimum MSCDEX Required 2.1
Video Modes Supported CGA, EGA, Hercules, MCGA, Tandy / PCjr, VGA
Sound Devices Supported Adlib, Game Blaster, PC Speaker, Roland MT-32 (and LAPC-I), Sound Blaster, Tandy / PCjr
Input Devices Supported Joystick (Analog), Keyboard, Mouse
Number of Players: Offline 1 Player
CD-ROM release requires: 80286 CPU MS-DOS or PC-DOS 3.1

I really really hope this game is going to happen on MSX2. It is my favourite PC DOS games.

Wasn’t one of the Delta Soft games distributed on CF?

The [url=http://elisoftware.org/index.php?title=Maniac_Mansion_(PC,_3_1/2%22_Disk)_LucasArts_Entertainment_-_1989_USA,_Canada_Release]Maniac Mansion[/url] PC System Requirements were:

Required CPU XT 8088/8086
Required RAM 384K
Supports Mouse Yes
Supports Joystick Yes
Supported Video CGA, EGA, VGA, MCGA, Hercules Monochrome

And yet, it was ported to the NES and C64.

And AFAIK, the original PC requirements for the [url=http://elisoftware.org/index.php?title=Secret_Of_Monkey_Island_(PC,_5_1/4%22_Disk)_LucasArts_Entertainment_-_1990_USA,_Canada_Release]original Monkey Island[/url] were:

PC MS-DOS 3.0
Required CPU AT 286
Required RAM 640K
Supports Mouse Yes
Supports Joystick Yes
Supported Audio Yes
Supported Video CGA, EGA, VGA, Tandy 16 Color

I remember that back then I played Monkey Island on a 8MHz 286 PC with 1MB of RAM, and it played very well. And the 8MHz 286 is much slower than the Turbo-R.

And, here's a video proving that it in fact runs on a 4.77MHz PC-XT. But the performance is just awful. Probably nobody will complain that MSX has slow video access after seeing this. :RNFF:
At least the MSX2 has hardware acceleration to help with the animations.

By the way, the terrible mono-chrome version (2 colors) you are showing on that video which shows unplayable and terrible already requieres a 16 bit processor with 640k of ram (10 times more than msx2)

We are not making a port for turbo-r either, just msx2 with 64 of ram, and 128k of vram.

An Scumm engine port is out of the question.

Also, the engine we are creating will be for:
-64 Mega rom cartridge (8000k)
-installable floppy disk version or micro-sd version for: Hdd, compact flash, sd, micro-sd installation.

There will not be a playable disk version. a Mass Storage Device is requiered. A cartridge version of 8000k will be available for those who lack a mass storage device.

Nobody mention, on Amiga Monkey Island runs fine, 7Mhz CPU, maybe on z80 runs good, but with ASM coding.

Toni, it was mentioned already.

@Kai Magazine

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing your port. It's a wonderful initiative.

I was just saying that the original game had lower hardware requirements than many expect. And of course I agree with you that it crawls horribly in the 4.77 PC-XT.

But it's your hobby, and your project, so it's only up to you to decide the better way to code it. Keep going!

Would that script fit into the 64k of ram of an msx2, together with the graphics decompressor and music replayer?
No.

Would the VRAM of the msx hold the amount of scaled images necessary to load all the video data necessary for some areas of the game in which there is a long scroll with front objects (closer to the camera than the character himself)?
Definitivelly not.
To run the first part of the game in which we can control the character (the one with the scumm bar, the port, the bridge, the house, the stones... together with the character frames, items and foreground objects all at the same time, just like the scumm version we would need at least 8 screen 5 pages + 2 more for double buffering.
I know it because I am doing this exact spot myself now.

I repeat: no amount of encoding will magically create more ram or vram.
It is a hardware limitation.

Kai. just go for it. Such very large scale projects cannot be defined, the hardware simply limits you and porting can no longer be a matter of 1:1 conversion. No matter which direction you turn you will always run against the only way of doing things like this: painstakingly remaking the whole thing from scratch.

The only thing that can stop you from eventually pulling this of is giving up. The only things that can cause you to give up is when your team decides to take a run and i am not talking about quiting. more about letting you wait and never admit they have given up. Persistence is all you require if you are a very persistent person then I only have to say: "I am looking forward to play this on MSX"

Hello Konamiman, thank you for your kind words and your warm welcome
Thank you also for your input. Regarding that (making a scumm engine for turbo-r or msx with 512k of ram), I still think it is not doablesince we need lots of ram and vram to port scumm v4 to the turbo-r and 512k of ram and 128k of vram are not enough.
Even if it would be doable, I'd rather choose to create a port for ANY msx2 instead for a few turbo-r users. I'd like that all msx2 users could enjoy the game. Also, it has more merit. It is a lot more of work, but the actual engine is running perfectly on a plain 64k msx2. Let's not forbid most msx2 users from enjoying this game, just because some want a scumm engine.
This is a very big project, and ALL msx2 users should be able to enjoy it. (that is my humble opinion)

Regarding the cartridge containing a RAM upgrade:
It is WAY too expensive. Each game should be sold WAY too expensive, just to cover the costs.
Just take a look at how much is a cartridge rom with 512 ram upgrade... Add to that all the other costs...
We spoke about this in the spanish forum.
Also, another advantadge of making an 64k msx2 port is we can also create an installable floppy disk version for mass storage devices (megaflashrom sd, scsi, cd, compact flash, hd...) for a very very low cost.

Regarding my return to the msx, it is offtopic and I will not engage here with long explanations.
In a few words: My partner Xavi Sorinas inspired me to come back with the creation of the remakes, and other new projects we are developing.

Thank you again

Thank you NYYRIKKI for your input and ideas, those are very clever, you are a pro.
But as I said before, I'd rather make a port for plain 64k msx2 so everyone can enjoy it.
It is a lot more of work, but I belive it is worth it.

Anyway, it would be fantastic for the msx community if someone with better knowledge than me could actually pull off an scumm v4 engine for turbo-r. That would be absolutelly awesome, and I encourage anyone to do it.

Kai go for max specs!
today those who buy carts have a couple of machines at least, and many users would see finally exploited their ram expansions
Consider also that a megarom allows more than cf/sd.
You can execute code and access data from the rom itself

Afaik most Japanese MSX2’s have just 64K, even MSX2+ computers. If the game is distributed on ROM it should be plenty. If it’s distributed on disk though just 64K will be limiting.

(My theory about why so many Japanese machines have just 64K is that, the manufacturers though it would be enough for their machines because at the time software was mostly released in ROM format.)

That said, I’ve got plenty of memory so I wouldn’t object to higher min specs.

Say, euhm... this might be an awkward idea, but maybe it's best to let Kai develop his port of Monkey Island the way he envisions it? It took 24 years before this game made it to MSX, nobody has attempted to port it before...

It might be interesting, as a completely different project, to see how far e.g. a turboR with GFX9K and Moonsound would come at a generic SCUMM implementation (either with or without pre-conversion), but that is way beyond the scope of Kai's great project.

Thank you snout!

sd_snatcher, I will not spoil the surprise

Back then (1990) I played the game on my neighbour's PC. The colourful VGA graphics and the animations were amazing for its time.

So go on Oscar!

I was thinking about a converter running on a modern platform like Windows. No need to have this on the MSX. This makes things probably faster and easier without changing the end-result.
IMHO after converting the (graphic) data it doesn't make sense to compare the Scumm V4 requirements with the MSX hardware in a 1:1 way. Most of these little animations aren't a problem for the Z80/VDP, and the amount of graphic data is shrinked down. Of course 64K only would hardly work as well as a floppy disc version.
You don't need as many VRAM as on the PC (MSX isn't VGA) and you can leave sound completely if it makes too much trouble at the beginning. Maybe you stay with the subtitles and add some simple conversions of the background tunes later. But sound shouldn't be a blocker.

Sounds fantastic! I totally agree, a direct Scumm port wouldn't be possible! It's cool, that you choosed this way of porting Monkey Island to the MSX!

I think we should drop the issue of wheter a SCUMMVM in MSX is possible or not. This post should be about KAI's version of Monkey Island. I really support the way they are doing it, by rebuilding it to work as good as possible on MSX. And I don't care if the final result is not exactly the same as the original one. This is the MSX version, that's what makes this port interesting (at least to me). I don't need a 100% faithful conversion, I already have the original game.

That being said, I have one (lame) question and a suggestion:

1) (lame question): Will we see a demo (even if it is just a youtube video) of it working ? I'm really curious to see it.

2) I hope you can add some MSX's jokes (it can be something simple as small graphics in the background making references to MSX or some jokes in the dialog, as they did in the original (IIRC, there's a dialog where he says "tell me something about LOOM")).

Anyway, you are doing a great work, and I really hope you can finish it, MSX deserves a Monkey Island port.

Thank you Metalion

Please make a video about this and make we wonder too.....

Kai, either 64k or 256k... You will sell the same. I think is possible MSX SCUMM scale down port (of course > RAM 64k) . But I think is not possible in (KUN) BASIC.

I'm keen to play/pay that. Good luck and GO for it.

Almost every "active" msx user has several msx machines, usually ram expanded (internally or externally).
Very few have just a 64k model.
So, imho, it's just a question of taste&will: i like your game and i want to buy it... Or NOT

100% Agree! Your game, your rules.

Hello Ramones, I realize I sounded very crude in my previous response.
I apologize for that.
Please understand that every time someone suggests this should be done by porting Scumm to msx, or using more ram, etc, they are in fact saying: "this could be done better", and every time I hear that (and it has been A LOT of times) frustrates me and disenourages me of doing it at all.

Regarding your suggestion that my aim is to sell more, please consider the amount of time and work to do this project, and even if ALL the active msx users on the planet purchased the game, the "profit" would never be nearly enough to cover it, not by a long shot.
If we do this is not to make a profit, but to do something that has never done before, and I'd like that everyone (who wants it) could enjoy it.
Please do not focus this issue as a way to sell more or make profit, because this is not the way to make a profit.
The way to make a profit is to create a 48k or 64k msx1 game, put it into a cartridge of 64k which costs 9 or 10 euro, and sell it for 30 euro to all msx1 and msx2 users on the planet.
That is the way to make a profit.

Regarding the "very few have just a 64k model", I did my own research in the matter, I asked every single buyer what models they have, and belive me, there are A LOT of people with 2+ without memory upgrade, and some sony msx2 with 64k of ram.
Anyway, to make a port of Scumm you need 640k of ram and at least 512 k of vram.

Very much looking forward to this project being completed. I always thought this kind of game would look great on MSX2 and looking at previous Kai Magazine work with software sprites, I can think of noone better to do this port.

I don't care how its ported as long as the project is completed and it looks and sounds good :-)

Thanks

Just one clarification:

Regarding your statement that noone wants msx1 and you cannot make profit with them:

-Manuel Pazos has manufactured more than 100 cartridges for the AAM guys for tomorrow. I will let you know how many they sell.
-uridium, the cure, batman, and many many others have been and will be top sellers, generating WAY more profit than I ever did with any of my games. Eric from Repo Factory is selling A LOT of msx1 games. so... Are you sure no one wants msx1 games?

Offcourse everyone would like new software for msx2, 2+ and tR, me too!
But if there is little to no developement for msx2 is because it requieres A LOT more of work, and gives no profit. It is a hobby.
It is not the same to program or remake a 48k msx1 game than making a 1400k or 2000k game.
Monkey island will be arround 8000k.

Anyway, as I said at the very beginning of this project, it is unlikely that it ever becomes complete for legal reasons, but I hope it inspires people to engage on new projects and development, really.

Kai, trust me if I tell you that uridium does not do any kind of profit.
You get profit when the income covers the costs providing a margin.

The research & development on the scrolling algorithm started in May 2012 (http://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/general-discussion/msx-vap...). I've been working on it about 5-6 hours per week, from May 2012 to October 2014, first on the tools and than on the game itself. Add yourself, you get about 3-4 months of FTE work.

The time I've spent to get uridium as you see it now can be monetised in 3-4 months of salary of a senior programmer.
This only for the code. You need to add HW design and assembly, graphic and music editing.

Eric has sold about Uridium 80 carts, the income, once payed the direct cost of the cart has been divided equally between people in the team.

MSX is an hobby, there is no way to make profit from msx (nor to cover its costs).

Anyway back to The Secret of Monkey Island: it is such a huge and hard work that cannot compared to anything else even seen on msx to the date.
Creating from scratch the whole game would be incredible hard. Do you plan any conversion tool for graphic and animations ? I hope you will invest in conversion tools able to make your life simpler in porting the Scumm data. You will need for sure some manual refinement, but at least you could start from a whole graphic set already scaled and converted to msx (I did this e.g. here)

PS
I'm telling just as I would do it, but as it is you that are doing it (and not me) you can ignore me safely
;-)

Airtag, I did not meant critisize or put down other people's work, I was trying to make a point regarding the fact that it is usually easier to make a profit with a 64k game and cartridge than with a big project like No Name (which took me a whole year working almost full-time on it, doing all the graphics hand made (and there are A LOT), code, and half of the musics, which now has to be sold into an "expensive" 2000k cartridge which costs more than twice the 64k cartridge.
The "profit" I got from this particular game is only 1 month's salary. So I belive I have a point.
Anyway, 2 years to develop an engine sounds brutal! and perhaps yours is not the best example, and I was not aiming to you or noone in particular, but in the Barcelona MSX reunions 99% of the games that are being sold are 48/64k games for msx1, inside low cost 64k roms, or recopilations of msx1 games.
What I meant to say, is that if someone wants to focus msx development for a profit, doing what I do is NOT a good idea, and it is easily a better idea to do small msx1 games or recopilations than engage in 1 year (full time) projects of 2000k.

Once clarified my previous point, I'd like to add that one of the many advantadges of programing on turbo basic is that I can code at a VERY fast speed, since I can test my code instantly, without having to compile everything, etc. And the end results can be spectacular, so I can advance quikcly.
Today we presented a demo of 1400k for msx2 (for 64k of ram) that took just 6 full days to code (and there is A LOT of code!!) the total development has been of 2 months including all aspects of the development, but right now I want to focus on the code part.
This demo is made with turbo basic and it is showing things that had never been seen on msx2 before, and that looks almost like the original version of mega CD.
I will post a video of such demo as soon as possible (in 1 or 2 days).
I feel very confortable programming with turbo basic, and it has not let me down so far.
Please judge by yourselves as soon as I publish this video.
I repeat: Probablu it can be done better (technically, etc) but noone has ever done anything similar before on msx.
Why? Perhaps because it would take 2 years to code in ASM?
I do not know, buit the fact remains the same: noone has done it before.
Same thig goes for monkey island. If I can create a full working engine with all the possibilities of the original game, I will be quite happy and satisfied (even if Disney/Lucas Arts Licensing company halts our development) because, again, noone else has done it before, and because this engine will be available for anyone to release their own point and click graphic adventures.
That is in fact my aim, not making a profit. I very much doubt the full version of monkey island will ever see the light for legal reasons, but an engine such as this could be the boost our system needs to inspire new developers.
So as you can see, I am not aiming for profit in this project. (I know you were not the one bringing the profit issue)
I am going offtopic. What I meant to say is, perhaps you should code in turbo basic, you could code much much faster and get to a much faster level of productivity.
As a matter of fact I encourage all developers to do so, then perhaps the msx would see more and bigger projects.
Just saying...

By the way, batman was sold at 35 euro each.

Very very nicely done.

Btw, by Turbo Basic, do you mean Basic-kun?

Looks great, and very close to the original (check the Illusion City video I uploaded last month to see most of the original animations). Don't understand the focus on 64kB, but if it works for you, it works for you :)

Curious what you can do with Monkey Island, it's one of my fav games!

Hello Jorito, it was this particular video that gave us the idea of doing the demo.

Regarding the focus on 64kb, I stated my reasons many times before in this very same forum, but I will state them once more:

1-as you can see, it works, and 64k are more than enough with the new storage devices and cartridges, so why more??

2-it is a bigger challange and has more merit, so I feel more realized.

3-20 years ago 99% of ms2 in europe had 128k of ram, but due to lack of new production, new msx users or old users who needed a replacement purchased japanese msx2 and 2+ computers with 64k of ram.
Do you have any idea of how many msx2 users (old and new) have a 64k msx2+ as their top model computer?
I do.
We sold many Kai magazine compilations all over the glove, and I asked everyone for their top model MSX2.
Also, yesterday at the Barcelona Reunion I awhich one is their top model MSX and many said 2+ without upgrades.

So...

Compilations are welcome as long as they contain old cassette games. Not exactly msx1... Speccy ports, you know. Easy to play thanks to rom format. Btw, compilations (Coded by ME) benefits go (afaik) to make AAM RUs free for everyone -stands included-

Batman uses msx2 colour, the same as your nice demo. However... Batman is a game that can be played. A demo is just a demo. Both msx2, the beautiful thing everyone desires.
What I mean is: sell a GAME and you'll sell many copies, sell a demo and probably you'll sell just a few of them. A demo is just a demo (no offense!! )

Kai, keep on doing whatever you want in the way you think is best. And try to enjoy, as well!

Sorry for my bad english and maybe for trying to help without being asked to.
You can email me in private (spanish) whenever you fancy to talk deeper and more seriously.
Good luck!
Regards.

The thing about chating using nicknames is, that I have no idea who I am talking to.
I had no idea you are the one who made the batman remake.
As a matter of fact I have no idea of who is who in this chat.

Anyway, I applaude your initiative and its results.
Bravo, I admire you, honestly.

Please let me know as soon as you have more Batman copys available, since I did not had the chance to ger mine
Regards.

That is actually a very appealing idea!
When is the reunion in Nijmegen?

Sorry, I missread your previous message

Cool :-) I knew it would be possible to get these SCUMM games on MSX!
Ah, how I'd love to play Space Quest, DOTT, Sam & Max hit the Road, Gobliiins and Leisure Suit Larry again!

Thank you for appreciating it! It would have taken me years with any other language, so I would have never done it

That's just another show of what can be done with basic kun (like all our previous games) so please people, try it yourselves! start developing new projects! today there are amazing technical advances that allows us to do spectacular things with a simple msx2!

Thank you!

Great job !

It is nice to see you back to the system.

Just a little remark: If the game is to be installed in a mass storage media (HD, SD, CF or whatever...), then I think that at least 128KB RAM are required.
As far as I know, such storage media include DOS 2, and thus 128KB RAM (or more) are needed.
Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Keep on doing what you're doing! Like this project and looking forward to see the final product!
Good job!

Maybe an old version of scumm could be ported in symbos...

Wasn't the original music some horrible OPL3 MIDI? ;-)

As MSX2+ user I'm glad this project aims to be playable with 64k (though I could still use some more RAM ._.)
Anyway, looking forward for this!

Wow, I hardly looked like the English part of the forum , did not know he was so active this topic here ( my english is very bad) . So to continue with the project. DONKEY MSX ISLAND !!!
: Evil:

Funny, I forgot about his. Next to this game, Kai apparently is also working on an MSX2 version of The Secret of Monkey Island...

These guys either have lots of time on their hands for development or they are too optimistic and announce a lot but finish nothing...

Exactly as you said. Lots of talking, but very little doing. Now you understand my skepticism in the thread about Kai's Rage.

Thank you, ren, for explaining this for me here in this post. We indeed announced long ago we would halt the Monkey Island developement, and we would use that engine to create something completelly original, which is Kai's rage, and it is currently our only project.
Sorry for not keeping you guys updated, we actually did not do any talking for months, but we have been doing a lot.
We have already 6 areas of the city (about half of it!), and a playable demo is almost complete, so we did work a lot on the project.
I hope noone belives such a game can be done in 3 or 4 months, and the fact we did not update any news does not mean we are not working on it, just that we are not so keen on attention.
Since we did not get any funding it will take longer than we would have hoped, but we will most certaily deliver.
This is a huge project. Please be patient.

Kai's rage is on hold due the fact that needs a lot of work and I have no money to spend 1 year working on just 1 game.
There is a lot of artwork done already but we need to make much more. It is in the "to do" list until I get my economical situation stabylized.

Regarding the graphic adventure engine itself, I might do a much easier and smaller AVG if I see there is a public for it, but after asking opinions to many people regarding what kind of games would they like to see developed, most people ask for action/arcade games, and mainly side view platformers, so I am working on that at the moment.

Btw, an MSX MI would (still) be awesome I suppose. If you're worried about legal stuff it could be released (leaked) anonymously? (Of course you won't be able to generate any (direct) income from it )

For MI fans who haven't seen it, nice watch: RetroAhoy: The Secret of Monkey Island