Open question to scene game piraters

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Por syn

Prophet (2097)

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26-05-2017, 11:09

Imho nowadays it is to be expected for games to be pirated, this is just the harsh reality of software in general, not just msx. And indeed it doesnt matter if its digital or a cartridge, since carts are not hard to dump. So if someone wants to pirate stuff there is not much difference.

I think I know who it is that is spreading the software (probably), the same guy that posted packs here on mrc and other places right? To be honest I have absolutely no clue why he does that, other than downright trolling. Imho its just common sense not to actively share stuff created by the few devs left.

Sad to hear that you are hurt by this John, but I can understand. And I am also sad to hear you will/might stop making music for MSX games. You are big part of the scene imo, so many games have your music.

Por wyrdwad

Paladin (931)

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26-05-2017, 11:10

FWIW, I've come to the conclusion that piracy is pretty much unavoidable -- it's no different in the fan scene than it is in professional game publishing. Every game we publish at XSEED gets pirated almost instantly, but there are still enough people (the majority of people, really) who legally support our games that we're able to stick around and release more games in the future. And those who pirated each game were likely people who would never have spent money on it anyway -- they just would've gone without playing it at all if no pirated version were available.

It's easy to focus on the pirates and lament the disrespect on display, but you just have to remember, they aren't the majority of gamers. I mean, how many copies did Tina's Adventure Island sell? I'll bet it was a lot! I know I got my copy in the mail a while ago, and I've been really enjoying it ever since. It was worth every penny I spent on it!

Trust in the good, honest people. Pirates will always be there, but the fanbase will always come through in the end.

-Tom

Por Pac

Scribe (6719)

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26-05-2017, 11:19

The never ending story... we will write thousand of lines here but anything will change, those people will never reconsiderer their behaviour and they will never regret about their acts, it's their modus operandi. I had a rude discussion recently with an user willing to get dumps from original cartridges (not available) and share them among their friends (without developer's permission of course). The worst thing, he was using the MRC for this. Even being advertised many times nothing changed his purpose. The fact that a current MSX product is not available anymore is not giving you permission to copy and share it freely, there are other ways like asking to the developer for a new batch for example.

Tina's Adventure Island is a different case, it's now available and I never expect that was already pirated, a total lack of respect. What a shame!

I'm not justifying anything but in the past was a bit different. Among other things most of Japanese productions were not available in our countries, we were somehow abandoned. We were children at that time but today we are adults and mature enough (my guess...) to distinguish what it's harmming the MSX scene, it's clear that not for some persons.

John, try to keep those nice persons who cares and really love the MSX in mind when developing. It's the way to deal with. Wink

Por hamlet

Scribe (4106)

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26-05-2017, 11:33

I like the way Konami did and also Bitwise with Intruder and Archomage. Make the cartridges worth collectable. Combining the cartridges gives extra features, give them maps or artwork that is necessary to play further. Now we got almost 40 years of copying software, major companies didn´t found a solution (ok, now we have Steam and the iStores). And yes, to be honest, we all have digital copies of great games running on our MSXs. Is it ok to use copies of software that isn´t available anymore? What if the puplisher do a new batch? The MFRSD make it much easier to run digital copies loaded from the net, than copying them on 720k disks. I remember the Kralizec case, and I really understand, why good programmers stop coding for the system. In my opinion it is not possible to stop copying. It´s a question of honour. Many people spend money for hardware but wouldn´t buy soft. That´s a story from 1984 until present.
I have a original ARC copy here, it comes with a dongle cartridge. But as I mentioned above, even major companies didn´t manage it to use a good copy protection. And I´m very happy to be able to play SpaceManbow on my MSX, because I can´t (or will not) spend so much money for a original cart. And in present I have the money to buy new cartridges, and I´m loving it getting new and great games in 2017. I got a lot of Imanoks games as digital copy, before I bought the cartridges. A cartridge is not a protection ever more or still wasn´t a protection in history of cracking groups. And talking about cracking groups, a lot of later coders start their carrier with hacking and cracking and doing great things for the demo scene later times.
Probably there is no solution, but everybody who wants to be honest can be it without problems, hmmm?
A good friend of mine stopped with MSX and "only" use emulators. I can understand users like him won´t be happy just getting a card. Maybe we have to get a new, function batch of USB PC game readers? With an original soundchip, or other specials build in?
There is much more to discuss but it´s like me team meetings: Surely there will be no solution than:
Use your SD cards wisely!
And here is a foto of a nice pirate!

Por JohnHassink

Ambassador (5605)

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26-05-2017, 11:37

Thanks guys, you're all saying wise things. It's just a reality, and a certain mentality is hard to change. I guess it's not so clever people who think that for instance coding a game goes like

10 CLS
20 MAKE A COOL GAME
30 GOTO 20
RUN

and that graphic designers just pluck their stuff from trees, and composers have a special secret button on their keyboard which they push, and then music just comes out. You can't cure stupidity like that.
I'm sorry for stirring up this discussion, but on the other hand, I'm glad I did. It really bothered me.
You guys are great, like most of the MSX scene. I'll try to be less negative from now.

@ hamlet: that pirate puts many rugged pirates to shame! Nobody's going to rob that treasure. Smile

Por Jipe

Paragon (1552)

imagem de Jipe

26-05-2017, 11:42

sorry : SYNTAX ERROR in 20

piracy is not born with computer , long before music is copied
vinyl to k7 is a old sample

Por JohnHassink

Ambassador (5605)

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26-05-2017, 12:02

Jipe wrote:

sorry : SYNTAX ERROR in 20

Aw shucks, and I thought making cool games was so easy!

Jipe wrote:

piracy is not born with computer , long before music is copied
vinyl to k7 is a old sample

It's true, you're right mister Jipe. The concept is older than you or me.

Por tfh

Prophet (3207)

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26-05-2017, 12:03

In the end, I think we all have (had) our share of illegal copies. Who hasn't recorded music from radio or vinyl, later on downloaded MP3's with napster or watched a downloaded movie? (Or copied a game at a local computer meeting in the 80's).
I also did this, quite a lot to be quite honest. And in the end I noticed that media became without value for me. In the past, when I spent 40 guilders (close to 20 euro's) on a CD, I listened to it over and over again. But when I started downloading music, my collection grew and grew and I listened to it less & less.

These days I rarely download stuff anymore because of this reason. I pay my cable company, netflix & spotify. I buy the games I want to play and also even have legal copies of Windows & office here on my machines. On the other hand, I never asked Konami, Compile, etc... if I was allowed to put their games on my website. So I can't say I am all piracy-free these days. Maybe I should think about that part as well.

As in regards to the original question of John: I personally also think that we should respect the work of the current scene, if we don't want to see it fade away. It's not like that they make tons of money with it, especially taking into account the amount of time they spend on making their releases. It's quite disrespectfull to devalueate their efforts to zero by copying their software.
On the other hand: Who in here can honestly say that they don't own ANY illegal media (anymore)... Because in the end, an illegal copy of a Music CD, Movie DVD, MicroSoft Office, old MSX games is just as wrong as an illegal copy of a scene MSX game. Even if it "feels" different...

Por Hrothgar

Champion (479)

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26-05-2017, 12:10

JohnHassink wrote:

is it possible that you're reading too much of an aggressive stance into ericb59 and wolf_'s posts?
I'm pretty sure they didn't mean any disrespect to how people like to enjoy games.

Most likely they didn't, but the net effect is the same: offering digital copies, as well as users requesting them, are being seen as (part of) the problem. Even if - again - there is no answer to why offering roms would be part of the problem and not offering them would be part of any solution. In the end this attitude is only eroding the remaining MSX world.

JohnHassink wrote:

The circle can be easily broken, I think:
Either us, creators of content don't care anymore and give up eventually, or certain elements within a scene are forced to grow up and grow a spine.

Trolls don't grow up, so only the first part of your sentence can be the solution. Stop caring. But not stopping to care about creating MSX related stuff, but stopping to care about whether certain people share your passion or laugh about it.

I respect people who make content for this system (I wish I could, but my programming skills never got any further than making Lingo in Basic), but if creators' sole (or main) satisfaction is people paying money for their efforts, that's a huge risk to their passion. I think the only way to continue enjoying this is getting your satisfaction out of the creation process itself, and the knowledge that there are people out there enjoying your results. If that's the case, then go on and have fun in doing so. But if expecting people to pay money for it is a main motivator, that's eventually a self-fulfilling way to stepping out; the evil world around you isn't going to change.

See this hobby as having a vegetable garden. You can have a great time throughout the year getting dirty hands and relaxing in it, and be rewarded by nature giving you a few tomatoes and some boerenkool once in a while. But if you expect it to earn or save you a lot of money or you know you'll be getting mad at the birds and snails for stealing part of your produce, then you can just as well not start such a hobby in the first place.

Por JohnHassink

Ambassador (5605)

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26-05-2017, 12:11

I like both analogies you make there, tfh. Good points. In the wake of teh internetz, I think a huge dent was made in the collective attention span, and the appreciation for "intellectual property", but God knows I was tape-trading heavy metal bands in the '80s.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if showing someone where to download Aleste 2 is the same as sharing a recent scene product.
They said sometimes, piracy is what killed the home computer (or MSX), and what actually caused Japanese developers to focus on their native crowd, but I don't really believe that.

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