frequency problem

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Por sd_snatcher

Prophet (3480)

imagem de sd_snatcher

15-12-2017, 19:39

Manuel wrote:

Join the discussion here: Let us know what you think and whether you have a better proposal! :)

But I already did that. I wonder what else there is for me to say there. :)

Por Manuel

Ascended (18238)

imagem de Manuel

15-12-2017, 20:41

sd_snatcher: I didn't mean you, of course! But the others I would like to blend in and show their opinions Smile

Por Meits

Scribe (6458)

imagem de Meits

15-12-2017, 21:51

I never use c-bios, but from a gamer's point of view I see a lot of benefits if it were just 60Hz. That'd indeed enhance the joy of watching youtube uploads of random gamers who don't have a clue/don't have a zip o' systemroms, but do complain that it seems too slow (like we know it is).

Somehow I feel like I'm repeating a previously mentioned reason. I just want to emphasize that it's a very valid reason since the first thing we sceners do is either start a japanese machine or type vdp(10)=0 as soon as there's a cursor. So I think there's a more valid reason to add it than there's to not add it.

My opinion is above. If you want it on github as well, feel free to c/p it Wink

Por Grauw

Ascended (10154)

imagem de Grauw

15-12-2017, 22:04

Well, there is a 60 Hz Japanese C-BIOS, just it’s not the default machine, for good reason because Konami games would show in Japanese.

Por tfh

Prophet (3002)

imagem de tfh

15-12-2017, 22:13

Maybe go for the WebMSX option: An American 60Hz C-Bios. Western Character set, still 60Hz.

Por TomH

Champion (327)

imagem de TomH

15-12-2017, 22:44

I'm imagining that hard-coding western versus Japanese is undesirable when usually the OS can furnish a user's preferred language, and a browser definitely supplies it. Just ship that into the emulator.

As to 50/60Hz, 60Hz sounds like a good default because I think the proportion of interesting titles that are Japanese is greater than the proportion that are Western, but would a wisdom-of-the-crowd solution be too unrealistic?

When launching a piece of media:

  • get the SHA of the original media, query an online database for best machine and a breakdown of its stats: 50/60Hz included;
  • if you can emulate that machine exactly, great, otherwise do what you can with the stats;
  • if the user changes those settings, communicate it back to the database;
  • if sufficiently many users have changed a setting the same way, or if a trusted user logs in and says so, change the default;
  • to lower the bar, offer a complete download of the database for offline reference in a computer-friendly format for new emulators or emulators ensconced in cross-platform abstraction so that performing a web request and a JSON parse would be a major hassle.

If that train hadn't already left the station, it doesn't seem too difficult to add additional metadata to all of the existing disk and tape file formats in a backwards-compatible fashion but it's hard to think of a solution for cartridge images with the work existing emulators do to derive a paging scheme from hints like file size.

Por Grauw

Ascended (10154)

imagem de Grauw

15-12-2017, 22:52

OpenMSX consults a database, only if that fails it tries to guess with fuzzy logic.

I do kinda like the idea of such a “magic machine” of sorts though.

Por Manuel

Ascended (18238)

imagem de Manuel

15-12-2017, 22:57

Nothing fuzzy about that logic though. It's just simple statistics Tongue Such a feature (auto machine select) could be programmed in a launcher or so. Or some 'lazy auto mode' in openMSX.

Por hit9918

Prophet (2911)

imagem de hit9918

16-12-2017, 23:01

I am worried that soon pressing the start button on catapult involves an online query. as developper I need to switch machines all day, dont want delay.

Por sd_snatcher

Prophet (3480)

imagem de sd_snatcher

17-12-2017, 14:34

I really fear when solutions tend to become over engineered.

The problem is very simple: The majority of big hit MSX games are Japanese, so they were designed for 60Hz. And it's known that they run sluggish on 50Hz.

A very simple solution is to make the default machine be 60Hz then. As already explained, there are some candidates for this:

- Japanese machine: The issue here is that some games that detect the region would change the language to Japanese too.
- Brazilian machine: Could have been the best candidates, if it wasn't for their specific keyboard layout
- US machine: Perfect fit. The only issue here seems to be psychological.

Let's tackle that psychological issue against the US machines then.

There are arguments that there haven't been any US MSX2 or higher machine. While this is true, is it really that important?

1) From the MSX architecture perspective:

a) The MSX planned US machines from its inception. It was never illegal or irregular to build such machines. For sad commercial reasons, the MSX history on the US ended at a very timid attempt of the 1st generation.
But MSX2, MSX2+ and even Turbo-R machines could have been build for the US market without any issues.

b) If anyone in the US decides to build brand new MSX1/2/2+/TR machines (either DIY like the GR8bit, or another OCM/Zemmix clone), they can.
c) If anyone decides to mod an European MSX2 to have a custom US BIOS, they can

2) From the C-BIOS perspective:

C-BIOS is a new implementation of the MSX-BIOS architecture, written from scratch. It has no legacy ties with the existing MSX machines other than be possible to install it on those.

a) If anyone wants to install the C-BIOS in their existing MSX machines, they can
b) If anyone in the US decides to build brand new MSX1/2/2+/TR machines (see 1b) with the C-BIOS to avoid licensing issues, they can.
c) Same as 1c, anyone can mod an European MSX and install a custom US C-BIOS if they want
d) C-BIOS supports many other configurations that were not officially released, like MSX2+ on Europe and MSX2/2+ in Brazil

3) From the openMSX perspective:

openMSX already contains has many examples of hardware that were never built or are only achieved by modding, for many valid reasons:

a) C-BIOS machines: Such machines were never built, but openMSX ships with them by default to avoid copyright issues
b) European MSX2+ machine: openMSX supported the C-BIOS_MSX2+_EU long before the GR8bit was released. So until then that configuration was based on an non-existing hardware
c) Boosted_* machines and extensions: those machines were created for convenience/ease of use, and are really worth it! But are only achievable with mods, and sometimes some very complex mods like the Boosted_MSXturboR_with_IDE. The skills required mod a real TR to be like that are superhuman. Smile
d) The Generic SCC+ comes expanded to 128KB: this makes it much easier to use, otherwise many inexperienced users would have trouble to be sure of which cartridge they should use for Snatcher, SD-Snatcher and KGCs.
e) The Arkanoid paddle is emulated as a mouse, also for easy of use
f) Some hardware never existed, and sometimes even no software supports it: joytap, ADVRAM, etc
g) Dir-as-disk never existed on real MSX machines: it was built for convenience, and it's a must have
h) Image scaling algorithms like hq and ScaleNx, where a real MSX setup has scanlines and that's it.
i) Mixer with easy sound level and balance adjustment per chip: no real MSX machine features that
h) An MBstereo extension, that combines the FM-PAC, Y8950 and Philips MIDI into a single stereo cartridge that never existed: built only for convenience/easy of use, as setting this manually every time would be a pain.

And many other cases, but this is already taking too long. You got the idea: openMSX already supports a plethora of non-existing hardware for a variety of reasons. Many of those are way more difficult to build for real than an US-spec C-BIOS machine.

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