DO you need a graphic card for msx?

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Por Salamander2

Expert (124)

imagem de Salamander2

03-09-2008, 20:51

here. if the msx could do the graphical capabilities of this game, i´ll be satisfied(at a minimum point).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y0_bvr76jk

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

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03-09-2008, 20:55

Dude, what the hell is that music? A random generator? Tongue

Anyway, I think you can safely forget about that 3d stuff & MSX..

Por Manuel

Ascended (19270)

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03-09-2008, 21:04

Why are they creating stuff for VSU, but not for GFX9000, which already exists?

OTOH: this will make more people have MoonSound and GFX9000 compatible hardware... So it might be more attractive to build software just for that hardware as well...

Por SLotman

Paragon (1242)

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03-09-2008, 22:11

the system need a simple and cheap yet powerfull videochip like the game boy advance has.
i just can´t afford (and don´t have the money) to pay for a gfx card so expensive as the xbox360.

Try buying the GFX9000 + Moonsound... it will be more expensive than the VSU.
If you can´t afford it, too bad for you... lucky those who can!

Por SLotman

Paragon (1242)

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03-09-2008, 22:14

Why are they creating stuff for VSU, but not for GFX9000, which already exists?
Those demos were made by Oazem himself, the creator of VSU Smile

OTOH: this will make more people have MoonSound and GFX9000 compatible hardware... So it might be more attractive to build software just for that hardware as well...
Yup!
One of the ideas is to start with fully compatible games for gfx9000 - on VSU it will have "more stuff" which would be disabled on plain gfx9000 Smile

Of course, as time goes by, more stuff will be VSU only... Hannibal

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

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03-09-2008, 23:04

Try buying the GFX9000 + Moonsound... it will be more expensive than the VSU.
If you can´t afford it, too bad for you... lucky those who can!

That may be so when you have nothing yet. However, quite some people already have a Moonsound and/or G9k. Depending on the 'and/or' a complete Moonsound+G9k solution will be cheaper than a complete new VSU.

But I really see a problem with content and the installed user base. There's already an installed base of -iirc- 250 or 350 G9k users. A number of them also has a Moonsound, and otherwise the Moonsound has also sold into the hundreds. I for one have both the Moonsound and the G9k, and I actually plan to do something for that combi, some day, but not too far into the future. For that we (infinite) need to do the following: extraordinary good tools! We're actually working on that, but it surely costs time. The thing with such a hi-spec config is that you don't go making a Pac Man or a Rise Out for it. The games you want to do are the games that are impossible on MSX1/2/+/R systems: big platformers with multilayers, big RPGs with layers (clouds, lower platforms (like Xak)), or even large shmups with large enemies and many layers, heck how about a real diagonal SimCity (using layers to walk behind buildings).

All very nice, but such games are huge undertakings for which you need extremely talented pixelers and coders (as usual, music is the easy bit here Tongue), and while I'm not stating that the VSU people over there are *not* talented, do keep in mind we have equally talented people here in Europe, or -heck- even NL alone. So far: little to no hi-spec products. What's the biggest large-scale scene-game you've seen, in -say- the last 4 years? I've said it earlier, and I will say it again: even if tomorrow the best-ever videocard will appear to us MSX'ians (a Sunrise Graphics12000 with both 2d and 3d, 16 scrolling layers, unlimited (cpu-limited) sprites on your screen and per line, 32bit argb color, 512MB videoram/texture ram, OGL etc. etc.), even then I doubt we'll ever see original scene-made games for it.

Having said all that: do me a favor and prove me wrong.. Hannibal I'm not against the VSU concept, but I just think ppl should look at the MSXdev contest and think about *why* it is so popular.. Tongue

Por Salamander2

Expert (124)

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03-09-2008, 23:31

Slotman: i mean cheap prices. look for the improvements of the original GameBoy hardware and the MSX until now. MSX hardware comes from early 80 an the GB comes from 1987 and still mantains its compatibility on 32 bit (or 16 bit thumb) enviroment with the original price still almost the same.
i think the MSX could atract more users if have improvements from the hardware point but for an affordable price. the VSU is a very piece of good hardware improvement, but i can say that its going to the same point of PC-FX, PIONEER LASER DISC COMBO, and other hardware that in theory, could do better from their original hardware, but killed themselves with poor line of software and huge price.

the cheapest the hardware, more the number of the users BUYING the thing. Not the "lucky" ones.
how it will cost the VSU in BR "Reais"?

wolf: i didn't exactly mean that the msx needs "3d". GBA hardware actually does not have any 3d hardware built-in hardware. and smashin drive is a good game in ...3d! (the music from the video isn´t the point). and i agree with you the point of comparisson of vsu and gfx9k+Moonsound. but i´m still telling you that the point of these hardware not having so much needed software is THAT THE PRICE AND ACESS TO THIS HARDWARE IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ALL THE USERS IN THE INSTALLED BASE, SO WE CAN´T HAVE THE THING TO PROGRAM OURSELVES. i´m not meaning that is "out of interest" of erevyone, but remains only in the hand of the little that can afford it.

Por Salamander2

Expert (124)

imagem de Salamander2

03-09-2008, 23:42

just to complete: more people using, more interest in the hardware and software and more to add in the $$$ numbers. it´s all about money. Smile

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

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03-09-2008, 23:53

If it's purely a way to get for instance the G9k widespread in your country then it's fully understandable. However, if you stick to 1 v9990 chip (and an opl4 for all I care) then whatever your people are making will automatically work here in the European countries (mostly NL tho) with people who have at least a G9k and preferably a Moonsound too. If however the VSU contains way more stacked chips then the VSU becomes unique again and if ever we want to see something running (your people created on the VSU) over here, then we're more or less required to buy a VSU ourselves. And *then* I can imagine that people would say: "ok, not going to spend around $400 for that, bad luck then". The result would be that all your games 'n things remain there where they've been made: your place. I'm much more in favor for a kind of global MSX standard (as in, a number of extensions everyone has) instead of a few very unique MSX'es everywhere around the globe.

Por Salamander2

Expert (124)

imagem de Salamander2

04-09-2008, 05:46

as i can see, you understand my point of view: global msx standard.

i believe that in your country, many already have the gfx9000 and the moonsound, and only now something going to start to be "in use" of this combination. that's a good point believeing that
the installed user base eventually will receive the software for this combination.

but what we can say about the use, for example, the laserdisc player for msx?
there are few games, but only those who actually have the computer and the expensive player
could use software for it. in the past years....nobody really cares about this = market
failure = few units sold = very few software for it.

yes it was new back in the time, yes it has a good quality of video for msx, yes could be usefull for a lot more things, but investiments in the player proved that not all users can actually buy the thing(or have acess to it). so i'll pass eventually.

i'm taking the very same way of gfx9000 and the moonsound.

and i think MANY will pass too, not only for the pricey combination, but
for the avaliabillity for the mass market. so in the end, you could prevail the lifetime of this
end the quantity of software for it.

u can pick road fighter, plug in your msx1 and play. the msx1 has a huge installed base
and consider the newest generations of msx can play it too. imagine if you could not play
it because the msx2 comes without the standart psg or inabilty to hold msx1 graphics.
the msx2 will not be be that seller without the compatibility! kay nishii set the standart the way it could be usefull for the future. not all pc-88 software is compatible with pc-98, neither X1 with x68000, or FM-7 with FM-77 or EU zx spectrum with RUS spectrum... but the msx and msx2 actually is.

win the case of no avaliable of moonsound, gfx9000, mp3 cart, ide, extra ram, ethernet, usb, etc.
the only option: STICK TO THE MSX THAT I ACTUALLY HAVE AND CONTINUE TO PRODUCE FOR IT AND IGNORE THE EVOLUTION.

or in the worst cenario you can always wait to the peripheral be emulated. IT'S FAR MORE CHEAP, and
eventually will be avaliable almost FOR FREE! this is not msx. this is pc mass market!
so u can produce awesome high quality music with the moonsound, outstanding graphics with gfx9000 and surelly we (the people that not buy the thing back in time) will use that software INTENDED TO STIMULATE THE USE OF THE ORIGINAL HARDWARE in the emulators. Without even power on the msx that we have and could not use the great hardware...

VSU is incredible. no doubt. but for 400$ and with the question u made of the hardware be avaliable just for the local people, surelly i will wait for the emulation.

back in the late 80s, in brazil, the people that cannot afford pay for an original msx2 or the "transformation" for the msx2 or 2+, CARCHANO made the awesome ACVS 2+ cart that could be used in ANY msx. plug the thing in you old and dusty msx1 and WOA! laydock2!!!! fray! space manbow! awesome! good old days. remember that the msx2 NEVER came oficially for brazil market.

the msx now has so awesome hardware, but almost useless!
my ideia of standart follows the same one of early nishi days and pre msx path:

take the BULKY HUGE comination of the segagenesis/megadrive plus the segacd/megacd and the 32x/super32x. you payied the highest buck for this monster and it could not even be equalled (in price and technology) with the sega saturn! what a waste of money and potential!

pick the now dated gameboy advance 32 bit. more powerfull and affordable than the sega combination. i can emulate it on my MING phone! a pocket celular phone! included in the mp3 and flv/mp4 videostream.

my point is that the msx can be upgradable too without cost too much and satisfy the entire group of users and even atract a new user base! i heard of some people of msx scene that migrated to the gba scene just because the gba is very easy to program with very good results.

i think it's time to realise that we need the msx3.
a new machine true to its roots but with a new concept.
my ideia of the unit is to be just a base, the size of a adsl modem only with the cartridges port and the SD card slot. MORE NOTHING.

every hardware both old and new integrated in one little boxed machine, with 16m colors, 32 bit full spec(at minimum) powerfull basic, powerfull symbos, opl4, mp3 player, flv player if possible, internet connection, etc.

keyboard, mouse, fdd drive? ALL WIRELESS. 32gb sd cart COMPATIBILITY with other earlier msxs and other cosmetic things at a psp price and you get my money instantly. and i bet this will approach new users and new developers. but thats my HUMBLE opinion. Smile

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