Screen 4

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By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3642)

Аватар пользователя sd_snatcher

15-02-2011, 20:46

Screen 4 is probably the sole mode where msx2 can move large objects interacting with teh player and scroll the level

Screen 5 needs too much cpu/vdp power to have scrolling and software sprites.
Actually, maybe, a pure vertical scroller could allow double buffering for software sprites.
No game has ever done that IIRC, the games I know usually stop teh scrolling when software sprites start moving


It should be possible to scroll in screen 5 if there would be no backround at all. Then the new tiles you copy in from the other page would not take too long to get copied in on the right 8 pixels of the screen. Without hw scrolling the backround would be impossible I guess.

Have people already forgot about those nice games below?!?

- Ys III (Someone please show me how this one can be done on scr4)
- Fray (Someone please show me how this one can be done on scr4)
- Haradius (scrolls exactly as any MSX gradius, but runs on scr5)
- Herzog (F1-Spirit style dual scroll, but on scr5)
- Ys (Fast 8x8 scroll with softsprites)
- Ys II (Fast 8x8 scroll with softsprites)
- Dragon Slayer 6 (Fast 8x8 scroll with softsprites)

Don't get me wrong: scr4 is nice, but for sure it's not the only way of doing great MSX games with a lot of animation.

By Daemos

Paragon (2044)

Аватар пользователя Daemos

15-02-2011, 21:03

Well. With scrolling I more think about per pixel scrolling and I think that such a thing is a lot more complicated in screen5. If we want to utilize parralax scrolling like they did in manbow it even gets harder in screen 5. When I perform a high speed VRAM copy for the entire screen it takes about 2 to 3 seconds to get that write finished.

So if I scroll lets say 8 pixels and then have to rewrite the new position it will run choppy for sure. Still I wonder about some games even though they use HW scrolling how they can run smooth over so many pages of screen.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3642)

Аватар пользователя sd_snatcher

15-02-2011, 21:04

BTW, I noticed that haradius is missing on generation-MSX. Who can include this game on the list?

By Daemos

Paragon (2044)

Аватар пользователя Daemos

15-02-2011, 21:59

Also. Are there some convenient screen 4 editors around? So I can give this screen 4 thingy a shot.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

Аватар пользователя wolf_

15-02-2011, 22:04


Have people already forgot about those nice games below?!?

- Ys III (Someone please show me how this one can be done on scr4)
- Fray (Someone please show me how this one can be done on scr4)
- Haradius (scrolls exactly as any MSX gradius, but runs on scr5)
- Herzog (F1-Spirit style dual scroll, but on scr5)
- Ys (Fast 8x8 scroll with softsprites)
- Ys II (Fast 8x8 scroll with softsprites)
- Dragon Slayer 6 (Fast 8x8 scroll with softsprites)

Don't get me wrong: scr4 is nice, but for sure it's not the only way of doing great MSX games with a lot of animation.

What you should consider is: how much changes per screen update in those games?

How much really changes in Fray.. or in Ys 3, or in DS6, or in Haradius? etc.

If your game runs screen 5 and scrolls and animates, then chances are that the big scrolls are in steps of 8 pixels. Chances are that there are a lot of repetitive 8x8 tiles. Having repetitive 8x8 tiles means that those won't have to be overwritten when the map offset changes, there's your room for optimization. And that's that.

When it comes to 'fast' games like horizontal shooters in screen 5, chances are that your enemies are all sprites as long as there is a background.

By Edwin

Paragon (1182)

Аватар пользователя Edwin

15-02-2011, 22:11

Smooth pixel by pixel scroll in sc5 is not impossible. It just requires a bit of trickery. It does load up the vdp quite heavily though, so you're restricted to sprites for anything. You'll figure it out when you're ready. Tongue

Another great way to do it, although not quite smooth, is the multi layer scroll effects as done by Ys III, Akin and the unfinished Coredump. I dare you to get to that level and make a game! Wink

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3642)

Аватар пользователя sd_snatcher

15-02-2011, 22:14

Well. With scrolling I more think about per pixel scrolling and I think that such a thing is a lot more complicated in screen5.

To me, it's a lot more complicated to do pixel scrolling on scr4. And if the hardware scroll is used, well, then theres the Aleste series to prove that it can be done.


If we want to utilize parralax scrolling like they did in manbow it even gets harder in screen 5. When I perform a high speed VRAM copy for the entire screen it takes about 2 to 3 seconds to get that write finished.

5 seconds?!? Smile

Refreshing people memories:

- YS3 video
- YS1 video
- Dragon Slayer 6 video
- Fray video
- Final Fantasy video
- Herzog (video shows a single player, unfortunately. With 2 players, 2 scrolls are shown on screen

Sadly, I couldn't find any Haradius video.

Note: Watching those videos brought a very good nostalgic moment. What great games!

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

Аватар пользователя wolf_

15-02-2011, 22:20

maybe he meant interrupts, not seconds..

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

Аватар пользователя wolf_

15-02-2011, 22:25

By the way, that Ys1 video is a good example of what I wrote above. The grass is the same, the beach is the same, the only thing you need to copy are the transitions between grass/beach and the trees. So, I'm sure any experienced coder here can pull out a game like that. But ask yourself: do you want to have and design a game with repetitive tiles?

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3642)

Аватар пользователя sd_snatcher

15-02-2011, 22:28

@wolf_

And what about Ys3? Smile

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