MSX HDMI mutlimedia card

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By maxis

Champion (512)

Аватар пользователя maxis

17-07-2015, 10:03

yzi wrote:

Maybe this has already been mentioned, but does the device try to simulate proper 240p60/288p50 scanlines, i.e. no line doubling? I think this is essential in order to have the picture look right. CRT simulation with virtual phosphor would be even better.

1. Yes, when I use EIA HDTV modes, Procyon requests HDTV 240p@60Hz and 288p@50Hz for MSX progressive modes simulation. The only problem I see is that the HDMI monitors has no EIA HDTV modes.
2. Virtual phosphor requires the 2D comb filter and can be easily tuned via "Motion video" image persistence settings on any recent HDTV.
3. If EIA is not implemented, then fall back to VGA mode over EIA or DMT.

By yzi

Champion (444)

Аватар пользователя yzi

17-07-2015, 11:19

In case of 240p60, how does it depend on EIA modes? If you can output at 60 fps, then just make odd "source scanlines" black or something. Have you looked at what the Micomsoft XRGB-mini Framemeister does?

By maxis

Champion (512)

Аватар пользователя maxis

17-07-2015, 14:14

yzi wrote:

In case of 240p60, how does it depend on EIA modes? If you can output at 60 fps, then just make odd "source scanlines" black or something. Have you looked at what the Micomsoft XRGB-mini Framemeister does?

As mentioned before, currently I do only support DMT modes (60Hz minimum frequency). But I do change the VGA timing slightly to comply to the 60Hz progressive/interlaced MSX VDP modes. And of course I have to repeat each scanline twice in 640x480 mode.

When I'll switch to EIA, however, then the TV scaler will do the stretching job for me.

Regarding the Micomsoft scaler, I'm looking into the details. It is interesting how they do interleave black lines with the 240p video lines. However, I don't really know whether we have to do anything like that since the Procyon signal at source is DIGITAL not ANALOG. I don't convert, digitize and quantize anything.

By yzi

Champion (444)

Аватар пользователя yzi

17-07-2015, 18:34

Why do you have to repeat each scanline twice? Who told you you have to do that? Drawing scanlines twice is line doubling, AFAIK. What bad will happen if you don't line-double? Why not insert black scanlines. That's what actually happens in 240p60/288p50 modes with CRT displays. Only half of the screen is filled with scanlines, the rest is never drawn to by the electron beam, because the MSX's VDP always directs the CRT to just draw the "first field".

By the way. You say you don't convert or digitize anything... Ok. What is the goal? To draw a digital numerical copy of the MSX's theoretical display on a digital screen via HDMI? Sounds like a bit mislead idea to me. The beauty of old machines and CRT displays is the smooth motion, the rounded glowing pixels, the scanlines. If you don't reproduce those, then it's some kind of frankenstein mockery of 1980s-1990s home computers.

By maxis

Champion (512)

Аватар пользователя maxis

24-07-2015, 15:14

yzi wrote:

Who told you you have to do that?

I do read standards. Do you?

yzi wrote:

Sounds like a bit mislead idea to me. The beauty of old machines and CRT displays is the smooth motion, the rounded glowing pixels, the scanlines. If you don't reproduce those, then it's some kind of frankenstein mockery of 1980s-1990s home computers.

Have you ever designed and built any hardware? Try to start from SDTV CVBS -> HDMI genlock. See how easy it is. Then, we will talk about what is frankenstein mockery and what isn't.

Also if you name 3 famous MSX2 game titles released for 50Hz it would be awesome.

I understand your point about emulation, however, there are many intermediate steps between now and CRT feeling on the HDTV.

We do treat the forum members and their works with respect, don't we? Otherwise what is the point of having the forum?
Insulting is always easy comparing to making things.

By syn

Paragon (1983)

Аватар пользователя syn

24-07-2015, 16:14

One of the most famous demos from the MSX2, Unknow Reality switches between 50hz and 60hz throughout the demo.
I'm pretty sure there are some more demos that are designed for 50hz, because you get more cpu time at 50hz and demos are all about showing impressive stuff where every bit of vdp/cpu power counts.

Games, Manbow 2 was made/intended for 50hz. And I guess radarsoft/John Vanderaert games may be designed for 50hz, he mentioned this in some panel interview that this was the case for his work on c64 games, and ran into problems at the american release for one of his c64 games because of the 60hz ntsc.

By syn

Paragon (1983)

Аватар пользователя syn

24-07-2015, 16:34

Btw I somehow missed some info about this thing, I thought it was just a msx1 hdmi out cartridge so I didn't really paid attention to this thread Big smile

I just browsed your site, the project it looks pretty amazing Big smile

By fernando.collazo.5682

Master (251)

Аватар пользователя fernando.collazo.5682

24-07-2015, 16:47

Forgive me my ignorance, can´t you put a simple switch to change 50/60 Hz?
Here in Brazil, 60Hz is ok for almost all MSX software, but some european games and demos, they run too fast and we can't appreciate them in the proper way how are to be.
Perhaps is too much trouble, but europeans are a huge MSX fan base and will be a potential customers of Procyon.

By maxis

Champion (512)

Аватар пользователя maxis

24-07-2015, 19:15

Hello,

syn wrote:

One of the most famous demos from the MSX2, Unknow Reality switches between 50hz and 60hz throughout the demo.

Could you, please, give me more details about the 50/60Hzswitch? Does it happen within the demo? How often and how fast? Or it is set at the beginning?
50Hz support is on the list, but the user will need HDTV or 50Hz enabled HDMI monitor. The standard DTM HDMI monitors don't support 50Hz and 100Hz respectively. Therefore, no genlock can be achieved.

syn wrote:

Manbow 2 was made/intended for 50hz. And I guess radarsoft/John Vanderaert games may be designed for 50hz

50Hz I'll add later on.

By maxis

Champion (512)

Аватар пользователя maxis

24-07-2015, 19:00

syn wrote:

Btw I somehow missed some info about this thing, I thought it was just a msx1 hdmi out cartridge so I didn't really paid attention to this thread Big smile

I just browsed your site, the project it looks pretty amazing Big smile

Thanks. Last December the card could do the MSX1 HDMI out + PSG/SCC audio emulation + memory extension. However, for about 7 months I'm working on the HDMI genlock, which is a difficult task.
If HDMI genlock idea is operational, then I can do the MSX2 VDP emulation. Otherwise I'll resort to the free scanning, but it is not so good, since this method produces the artifacts.

Current project plan:
- Finalize the current VGA mode HDMI genlock;
- Implement the stand-alone MSX1;
- Implement the stand-alone SMS;
- Design and validate the multi-mode 50/60Hz genlock;
- Finalize MSX2 VDP command engine.
etc.

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