Adjust register in games.

By PingPong

Enlighted (4155)

11-12-2022, 20:24

Quote:

Pentarou wrote:

PingPong wrote:

Pratically all coleco games were on average better than msx1 native games.

@JohnHassink: Just as I predicted...
In the end he found a way to turn the thread in the usual system war.

It's a war only for you, for others are only point of discussions as it happens in all forums. ;-)
I suggest you be a little less paranoid ;-) ;-)
And here we are not talking of different system as the colecovision is so much similar to msx1 on the hw side that a comparison is pointless for everyone, except for you of course ;-)
By contrast it is the opposite: the comparison were on game 'quality' given the same video hw as i've pointed out.
Please read with more attention my messages instead of making so quickly your observations. ;-)

Quote:

Bah... Leaving the Coleco aside, and going back to the thread topic:
Which games could have benefited from the scroll register assisted scrolling?
Please leave aside titles like Vampire Killer, where the screen flipping was a deliberate choice.

1) i've talked about the smooth scrolling because it is a thing usually difficult on msx
2) We're talking about msx1 which have no hw scroll register facility so your observation make literally no sense here ;-)
3) on vampire killer the screen flipping was not a deliberate choice but instead a fixed road path. if the game was developed for v9958 we could have no page flipping at all. It is clear that you do not have any tech knowledge of msx hw to say that "it was a deliberate choice"
You've wasted another good chance to keep silent. ;-)

By Pentarou

Hero (559)

11-12-2022, 20:57

PingPong wrote:

It is clear that you do not have any tech knowledge of msx hw to say that "it was a deliberate choice"

It's possible.
But at least I don't waste my time arguing, and coming up with useless rubbish, pretending to be right
IMHO If it was meant to scroll, they could have had it scroll at character level.
I think they did it as a deliberate choice, by turning the game in something that plays differently than the FC version, while keeping the graphics and theme similar.
Konami did the same thing with two other licensed proprieties:
Both the King Kong and the Hinotori franchise have very different FC ports.

PingPong wrote:

You've wasted another good chance to keep silent. ;-)

The same applies to you.
Now please reply to my question:
Which MSX2 games could have been better with the scroll register?

By PingPong

Enlighted (4155)

11-12-2022, 21:16

Pentarou wrote:

PingPong wrote:

It is clear that you do not have any tech knowledge of msx hw to say that "it was a deliberate choice"

Quote:

It's possible.
IMHO If it was meant to scroll, they could have had it scroll at character level.
I think they did it as a deliberate choice, by turning the game in something that plays differently than the FC version, while keeping the graphics and theme similar.

the game would have looked so bad that they problably never considered this alternative. So not a deliberate choice.

Quote:

Konami did the same thing with two other licensed proprieties:
Both the King Kong and the Hinotori franchise have very different FC ports.

For the same reasons of VK. not a deliberate choice a forced one.

Quote:

But at least I don't waste my time arguing, and coming up with useless rubbish, pretending to be right
S

Are you sure? you've did it just now.... ;-) ;-)

Quote:

PingPong wrote:

You've wasted another good chance to keep silent. ;-)

The same applies to you.

you said something that was not the point of my discussion so you wasted the chance to keep silent.
By contrast i've pointed you your mistake, so at least my reply was not a waste of time.

Quote:

Now please reply to my question:
Which MSX2 games could have been better with the scroll register?

Incredible! ;-) ;-) you blame me of saying rubbish and keep boring us with your MSX2 scroll register issues that is not the point.
Here the discussion was on MSX1 not MSX2 nor scroll registers.
Another good chance to keep silent wasted. ;-) ;-) ;-)

By Pentarou

Hero (559)

11-12-2022, 22:03

Mine was an honest question and *in topic* :
I don't know which games do have staggered horizontal scrolling (*), so? Which ones?

(*) Well, I guess as Grauw pointed out, the PC-88 ports could be excluded.

By PingPong

Enlighted (4155)

11-12-2022, 23:03

Quote:

Pentarou wrote:

Mine was an honest question and *in topic* :
I don't know which games do have staggered horizontal scrolling (*), so? Which ones?

(*) Well, I guess as Grauw pointed out, the PC-88 ports could be excluded.

Are you referring to msx1 or msx2 ?
Please note that PC 88 is not the point of my discussion nor it is msx2 or higher.

In my current topic i only talked of msx1, and pointed to the scroll issue because it is something not so easy to get on msx (except for the v9958 but it is out of discussion ).
I've could had talked about other issues like optimization in VRAM I/O or colour clash or other.
My point of discussion here is the different efforts (and thus the quality) employeed by developers in pushing the TMS VDP (which is the same on colecovision and msx so no comparison at system level ) when comparing msx1 average quality with colecovision one . And only from a technical point of view not on gameplay or number of stages.

By Pentarou

Hero (559)

11-12-2022, 23:13

PingPong wrote:

Are you referring to msx1 or msx2 ?

I believe my question was clear, I wrote it in my next to last message:

Which MSX2 games could have been better with the scroll register?

PingPong wrote:

Please note that PC 88 is not the point of my discussion nor it is msx2 or higher.
In my current topic i only talked of msx1, and pointed to the scroll issue because it is something not so easy to get on msx (except for the v9958 but it is out of discussion ).

I've only asked which (existing) games could have been enhanced.
I've NOT mentioned MSX1, nor Coleco and I only mentioned PC-88 to concur with Grauw remark.

By gdx

Enlighted (6436)

12-12-2022, 02:19

PingPong you're out of luck I know colecovision as well as MSXs. I even converted many for MSX.

PingPong wrote:

Pratically all coleco games were on average better than msx1 native games.

You say that when the coleco has almost no native games. The majority are pale reproductions of arcade games.

PingPong wrote:

gdx wrote:

Then quote me the Coleco games that have a fluid scrolling that is not on MSX! I am sure that even this argument has no weight.

already done before.

You're lying. You give no title except Jungle hunt that doesn't really have smooth scrolling. This game is also 3 stages that run in a loop. Even if taken into account, a single headline renders your argument in bad faith.

PingPong wrote:

it's here and anyone can see this. We are talking of objective things not of personal interpretations!

You're lying again. I said games are generally 3 stages that run in a loop and the interest is limited to the score. I also said coleco games are not rich (no option, no hidden item/stage, no bonus to spice up the game). These are objective facts. And you, the only arguments you give these: "Coleco games are better" they have smooth scrolling. You give nothing objective.

And now I add we have to wait about ten seconds in front of the logo before we can play and coleco controllers are all of poor quality. This is very detrimental to the interest of the games.

PS: Konami Road Fighter is better polished than any racing game on coleco. Only Spy Hunter is a good game but that is less polished.

By Micha

Expert (110)

12-12-2022, 11:36

Games that have smooth scrolling on the Colecovision are:
- Grogs revenge -> MSX version looks exactly the same, and also scrolls smooth
- Choplifter -> MSX version looks better and also scrolls smooth
- Decathlon -> MSX version looks exactly the same and also has smooth scrolling
- Defender -> not published for MSX
- Jungle hunt -> has been ported from Coleco to MSX and looks and scrolls the same
- Pitfall 2 -> smooth scroll vertically; looks and scrolls exactly the same on MSX
- River Raid -> MSX version looks exactly the same and also has smooth scrolling
- Super Cobra -> games look different; Colecovision scrolls per 2 pixels, MSX per 4 pixels
- Up n Down -> Scrolls per 4 pixels vertically on the Coleco (not really smooth), there is no MSX version

Maybe I'm missing a few, but I don't see any significant differences.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

12-12-2022, 17:00

Micha wrote:

- Defender -> not published for MSX

True. There was the clone "Desolator", though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKYcmqNWpwg&ab_channel=TheVi...
Played it back in the day, and I seem to remember that it scrolled okay, but it's hard to judge from this video (and it was one of the best I could find).

By PingPong

Enlighted (4155)

12-12-2022, 18:34

gdx wrote:

PingPong you're out of luck I know colecovision as well as MSXs. I even converted many for MSX.

PingPong wrote:

Pratically all coleco games were on average better than msx1 native games.

You say that when the coleco has almost no native games. The majority are pale reproductions of arcade games.

Per native games i mean games born on coleco and ported on MSX. as a guy that does convertions you should have understood what i mean. I mean the same applied to MSX

Quote:

You're lying. You give no title except Jungle hunt that doesn't really have smooth scrolling.

It has, and it is an objective thing not an interpretation. It does go even far because can scroll smoothly or at more granular steps a thing that is not so easy to do even on a machine that has hw support.

Quote:

This game is also 3 stages that run in a loop. Even if taken into account, a single headline renders your argument in bad faith.

you keep considering the quality of a game based on stage count. That does not mean absolutely nothing.
What make the difference is the ability to push the limitation of a specific hw to get the most similar result to the original game.

Quote:

PingPong wrote:

it's here and anyone can see this. We are talking of objective things not of personal interpretations!

smooth scrolling is a fact and is objective. Instead your points are only subjective evaluations. For example the lack of hidden items could be important for you but it does not mean it does affect the quality of a game.
I see the quality from a tech point of view. To me the number of stages or hidden items, or anyone that could be easily implemented has no value . Because it's easy to get. Just use a megarom of bigger size.

What is the value of having 50 or 100 stages in a game? Having memory available (like in megarom) means no additional difficulty to achieve. So no pratical value, even an average coder can accomplish this.
By contrast finding a way to get an almost impossible feature from a hw has a value and it's a sign of skill of the programmer.

Quote:

And now I add we have to wait about ten seconds in front of the logo before we can play and coleco controllers are all of poor quality. This is very detrimental to the interest of the games.

it is much worse fighting with a game with low framerate because the coder was unable to find a way to make it run decently

Quote:

PS: Konami Road Fighter is better polished than any racing game on coleco. Only Spy Hunter is a good game but that is less polished.

I've done a comparison between ROAD FIGTHER (that is an average game, without any particular feature and even a reduced area (meaning no challenge in getting fast frame rate) and the true gem like XRacing which feature a very interesting approach and show us the skill of the coder. This is a game with a value to me because achieved a lot from the MSX1 HW